The Rarest Dragon Armor Yet?

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:04 pm

Hi,
We posted this news blurb on our web site yesterday and figured it made sense to also share this information with you here. Obviously each vendor can formulate their own sales plan. We're just discussing our own:

The Rarest Dragon Armor Yet?
While Johann Huber may not be the most famous tanker of World War II, his pint-sized armored vehicle might soon be. In a move that is still befuddling to some, Dragon announced recently that only a handful of Johann Huber's 1:72 scale Jagdpanzer IV L/70 tank destroyer will be doled out to each vendor at the upcoming Dragon Expo, far fewer than was expected. No reason has been given for the shortfall, which has left many vendors and collectors scratching their heads wondering about their worth.

That said, we will not be able to fill any of the pre-orders we've already taken for this item and have instead elected to put them up for auction on Ebay once we return. While we recognize many of our customers will be disappointed by this move, we think this is the most prudent course of action given the paucity of product available. Sorry, but our hands are tied on this one and we wish we had more to offer!

Food for thought -- one vendor just listed several Dragon Exclusives on ebay even though they're still a month away from being received. One of the items, a 1:6 scale Zundapp rider in DAK livery, went for over $282!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

Cordially,

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

Tshintl · Post by **Tshintl** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:09 pm

Any pictures of this yet? It's about a month away and the larger scale stuff has been in the spotlight for quite some time now, but no glimpse of the Dragon Armor Expo release.

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:17 pm

Hi,
Thus far they've only posted an artist's rendering of the vehicle. It can be viewed on the Dragon Expo site and I'm sure Dragon will replace it with an actual photo once they're available.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:53 pm

I am sure someone will have to have this tank, and pay out the butt for it, but I wouldn't be "pooping" all over myself just yet...Dragon will eventually offer the Jagdpanzer IV as a regular issue, So, if you don't have to have this particular scheme, there will be others soon enough..

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:01 pm

Hello Harry,
While that may be true, how would you explain the heavy demand for the Michael Wittmann Tiger tank (60001) when countless other iterations have been released since it came out? The key difference here is marketing -- this is being billed as a very limited edition release. The fact that Johann Huber served as the gunner onboard this tank is taking a back seat to supply and demand issues and rabid interest in the line. I agree that several standard issues Jagdpanzers will eventually come out -- but this particular tank is being aimed at the collector that needs to own the entire collection, no matter the price.

Make no mistake, Dragon could just as easily crank out more of these suckers if they truly wanted to but they're going in the exact opposite direction, looking to keep the market tight and heighten consumer interest.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:00 pm

Lightning,
I just don't see Dragon ONLY making a handful of these to be handed out.. The rules of production don't allow for it.. Now, Dragon may not have enough of these ready in time for DXpo, but it wouldn't surprise me if they come out with it as a "Cyberhobby Exclusive" afterwards..

The ONLY reason the Wittmann Tiger is SO rare, is that many people that started collecting these missed the boat on the first release.. I remember when the #60001 first came out, and they were a hard sell on Ebay.. Some people coudn't give them away.. Now, they are the most desired piece..

One thing I have learned about Dragon is don't count on anything they say and only believe what you see...

So, I will believe it, WHEN I see it.....

nfafan · Post by **nfafan** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:28 pm

lightning2000 wrote:Hi,
We posted this news blurb on our web site yesterday and figured it made sense to also share this information with you here. Obviously each vendor can formulate their own sales plan. We're just discussing our own:

The Rarest Dragon Armor Yet?
<snip>

That said, we will not be able to fill any of the pre-orders we've already taken for this item and have instead elected to put them up for auction on Ebay once we return. While we recognize many of our customers will be disappointed by this move, we think this is the most prudent course of action given the paucity of product available. Sorry, but our hands are tied on this one and we wish we had more to offer!

<snip>

Cordially,

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

Hmmm. Good of you to explain the situation, and you were honest about it.
Now if I understand it:

Vendors had taken pre-orders from clients on the expectation of getting a "normal" inventory.
Clients have pre-ordered the item on the same expectation.
Clients pre-order to secure a copy when the order comes in.

Vendors will be short-changed by Dragon.
Vendors now do not have enough to go around.

So vendors waive off the good-faith pre-orders from clients and instead choose to sell the expected limited numbers on hand via eBay.

Priceless.

A stand-up vendor would have honored the pre-orders - up to the quantity on hand - at the agreed upon pre-ordered price.

Such action would insure that clients flock to pre-order any further "future" releases from same vendor, as same vendor has shown themselves to be stand-up guys in times when Dragon is less than same.

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:42 pm

Hey,
Dont kill the messenger here. I'm merely trying to tell you what's up from what Dragon has told us. If they have more in reserve, they havent said so. You try to give people a heads up and instead they take off your head. Next time I wont say anything. Try to be a little civil NFAFAN.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

fullyautomatic · Post by **fullyautomatic** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:05 pm

Lightning.It looks like I'll have to watch e-bay to see how many you have for sale to determine the size of handfuls you were alotted as mentioned in your posting.I agree with nfafan's comments and feel its a poor decision on your part not to honour pre-orders even though you will not be able to fill the entire orders.Like many other dealers its usually a first come first serve business.To not fill your customers pre-orders and then turn around and sell them on e-bay where you know the profit margin will be higher is poor customer relations.I know your running a business to make money but why have pre-orders if you cannot honour them when product is available,even in short supply.
Harry please don't "poop" on yourself.It's not worth it.I also agree that Dragon will offer this as another release down the road.It seems like Dragon is producing more and more exclusives than just the regular releases like they did when they first started.Its a shame, a sham or maybe a scam???

Mr. Football · Post by **Mr. Football** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:09 pm

That's great, but no way in hell I'm paying more than $30 for a Stug.

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:19 pm

Mr. Football wrote:That's great, but no way in hell I'm paying more than $30 for a Stug.

It's not exactly a Stug, but I guess it's close enough..

I have to say I agree with the previous posts by Nfafan and Fullyauto..
I won't go any further than that..

Tshintl · Post by **Tshintl** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:47 pm

While I don't think it's wise to cancel the orders and instead sell them on Ebay (will probably lose future business due to it), I can also see why you would want to sell them on Ebay instead since you would make more money that way (it's a hard decision). Hopefully you will make more on Ebay then you will lose by people taking their business elsewhere because of this.

What explains 60001 being so popular is the fact it was the first Dragon Armor piece to be released. It doesn't matter how many other versions come out down the road, 60001 started it all and to the collector that has to have them all, it's where they need to start.

I doubt any in the future will be as popular as 60001 since the range is pretty popular now. Dragon had a good idea with ltd. ed. pieces at first, but recently Dragon seems to be losing it. Maybe this will be their comeback.

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:46 am

Hello,
Its not a question of making more money on eBay although we probably will once supplies are exhausted. There's no guarantee that the item will fetch an exorbitant price especially when all the other vendors are thinking the same thing even though they're not saying so in a public manner. As an aside, we dont always make more money on ebay. If you're a plane collector, then you regularly see our Armour Collection aircraft going for a starting bid of just $24.99, and sometimes they end up selling for a few dollar more. When you factor in all the costs associated with an auction listing, then that's not exactly making out like a bandit. Furthermore, putting an item up for auction isnt evil, as some of you might like to think -- there are quite a few people in this forum that do it as well to make a few extra dollars, so you know what I'm talking about.

As for quantities allotted, I dont think we can say publicly how many we're getting just in case Dragon is telling one vendor something and another vendor something else at this juncture. If other vendors want to step up to the podium and say how many they're getting, then we'll certainly do the same. For now though, its a handful and we've told Dragon in no uncertain terms how we feel about it.

There's also some other factors at work here that I dont think you fully recognize. For starters, it costs alot for us to fly a thousand miles, stay at a hotel for a week, pay for meals, ship additional product down and back to compensate for not having enough exclusive merchandise, and not be able to attend to our regular business for days on end. I'm not crying poverty, but that's a fact you're overlooking. Secondly, by putting them up for auction, everyone gets a shot at buying them, instead of just shipping them to a couple of early birds that placed orders for these vehicles in quantities. I'd rather try to make a dozen people happy than let a few people corner the market.

We always try to honor pre-orders unless there are extenuating circumstances, such as in this case. And, there was no reason for us to believe that this item would be in short supply. Heck, you can still obtain last year's Weekend of Heroes King Tiger for a pretty reasonable price and the Show was held over a year ago. I still have no idea why Dragon is keeping a lid on this and some other items, but that's what's happening and we have no idea if they plan to release more at some later date.

Anyway, just my two cents. I dont like it anymore than you so we're sticking to this course of action unless Dragon decides to open the floodgates...

Cordially,

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:20 am

Hello Tshintl,
One final thought I forgot to touch upon in my earlier verbose diatribe. We never said we were "cancelling any orders." All I said was we wont be able to "fill them." Big difference. Essentially, if Dragon does a turn-around and offers us alot more of this particular vehicle at a later date, then we can certainly begin filling pre-orders at the original price. I think that's fair...

Cordially,

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

Windspruce · Post by **Windspruce** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:25 am

While I wasn't thrilled to hear that lightning2000 will not be filling preorders, I do give him credit for informing us of his decision and presenting some reasonable arguments as to why they are going to list these on ebay. I did not preorder this model, so potentially I stand to gain if I want to bid on this. On the other hand, if I had preordered I would be miffed.

All in all I am glad lightning2000 feels comfortable enough with the members of this forum to discuss his business decisions even if he knows they will not be popular.

Mike

smh_1021 · Post by **smh_1021** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:57 am

If I can offer an opinion ($.02 - I checked with my wife and she said that I was lucky if it was worth that much).

Before we start criticizing 'lightning2000', we should really direct some of the frustration at Dragon. The convention was not planned on the spur of a moment and Dragon has had ample opportunity to prepare and address potential production/manufacturing concerns in preparation for an event that I think Dragon really wants to have succeed, given that Dragon did not participate in the Weekend of Heroes. I know that I, for one, was certainly looking forward to the Johann Huber Jagdpanzer - probably even more than the action figures/models that will be offered or made available.

For Dragon to consider such a change so near the convention is quite disheartening as far as I am concerned - especially given the time/dollars/effort expended by a substantial number of individuals to attend and/or participate in the convention. If the problem is indeed manufacturing, then either 'fix' the problem or offer convention attendees a 'coupon' to obtain the item at a later date - if Dragon is concerned about maintaining the item as a hard-to-find (understatement) collectible, achieving that while providing more than a handful to each vendor is not difficult. I know that many individuals will adapt - however, there are many that really want to be able to add the item for completeness or the uniqueness of the association with Johann Huber.

If anything, 'lightning2000' is being straight-forward about how the item will be made available - the planned pre-order was made available when indications were that the item would be more widely 'available'. Have to give 'lightning2000' some credit for making some information available to other collectors that Dragon has not made available on the DragonExpo05 web-site (wold have liked to have seen an update with a reference to limited availability of the Jagdpanzer).

smh_1021 · Post by **smh_1021** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:58 am

Dragon has to be satisfied with the success of the Dragon Armor product line - vendors have to purchasing cases and cases, collectors are consistently collecting the items (with many purchasing more than one item), the CyberHobby Exclusives continue to sell (even with the recent redundant offerings), etc.

In my opinion, there would be two (2) reasons behind the limited availability - (1) manufacturing, or (2) collectability.

If (1), then offer a 'plan' to address the shortfall in production.
If (2) .... what is so different that the model no. 60100 item, maybe not quite as unique as the Johann Huber Jagdpanzer. Minimally, make enough available for the planned attendance, or an assume portion that Dragon would assume would be interested in Dragon Armor. That can still be achieved while limiting the production to a 'desirable' number - because, I would assume that there is a substantial number (understatement) of Dragon Armor collectors that will not be attending the convention.

I guess I just don't understand ................

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:13 am

Hello Windspruce and SMH,
Thanks for your kind words and it takes an equal amount of courage to respond in kind on this vexing topic. I was a little peeved by the initial response we got from some people taking out their frustration on us by Dragon's move.

As SMH pointed out, Dragon had ample time to decide how much product they were going to make available to the vendors/conventioneers and they could've either ramped up production to meet the needs or provide vouchers that could be redeemed at a later date if product couldnt make the show in time. How do you think we're going to feel when we sit there for four days telling people we dont have the tank to sell them when Dragon is in turn telling the convetioneers that they gave everything to the vendors? Not my idea of fun when we've spent thousands of dollars to support them by attending the Show.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

smh_1021 · Post by **smh_1021** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:26 am

To someone from Dragon that may read this ......

As a Dragon collector (action figures, die-cast aircraft and armor, Can.Do, 1/400th scale military aircraft, etc.), I made plans on attending the Dragon convention to (1) show support for Dragon, (2) meet and/or spend a few moments with fellow vendors and collectors of Dragon products, (3) pick-up a few items that would be limited in availability to the convention. Looks as though I will be able to obtain the action figures - but, I will admit that the one item that I was really hoping to obtain was the Johann Huber Jagdpanzer - and to possibly have the opportunity to have the individual that was a gunner in the Jagdpanzer sign the item. Even if I only had an opportunity to obtain just ONE (1), that would remain a reason (or, at least one of the reasons) to attend the convention - whether I could purchase from a Dragon booth or purchase from a vendor.

I can't remember the last time when a collector of die-cast planes or armor had an opportunity to obtain a unique item AND have the opportunity to have the individual sign the item - that would provide quite a collectible. As a collector, the fact that the availability of the Jagdpanzer has become an issue has been somewhat disheartening as the convention approaches.

I apologize, because I am not trying to be negative towards Dragon - because I remain an avid Dragon supporter. But, the situation being described can and should be fixed.

easy8 · Post by **easy8** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:50 am

Well, I usually try to stay out of these types of exchanges...but I can't help but chime in on this one. 1. Hats off to Lightning for being upfront and honest about their approach to the situation. 2. Shame on Dragon for not living up to their end of the deal, remember though, this company is based and run in a different country and culture from ours, customer service may not be at the top of their "corporate goals". 3. I do have to agree with some on this though, if you make a deal with someone a.k.a. a "preorder" I think you should honor it. That is what a preorder is, a gaurantee that when the product arrives, those who chose to get it early will receive the product first. What Dragon did sucks, but that is not the customer's problem. (This is a statement to all vendors, not just singling out Lightning here) By pulling a preorder, you test the trust your customers have in your business, I guess if you are willing to take that chance, that's your gamble to make. Fill what preorders you can, give the others a raincheck, or some other kind of option to purchase something else through your store. I'm not trying to offend anyone, just giving my gut response to this.

easy8

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:00 am

Hello Easy,
Thanks for your input although I have to disagree with you on one point. A pre-order is not a guarantee to obtain an item the same way a customer doesnt guarantee they will complete the transaction should their credit card expire or they decide they dont want the item when it finally comes in. A pre-order means you are ordering the item in advance of its release. If extenuating circumstances enter into the situation that's out of our control there's only so much we can do. And, as I already indicated, we arent cancelling the pre-orders. If Dragon ships us more product then we'll fill the orders, case closed.

We dont manufacture the product, we just sell it. We're not trying to lose sales or turn away business if Dragon decides to keep the market in short supply. And, if one early bird placed an order for all of the product we're allotted, would that make you feel any better?

Cordially,

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

digger · Post by **digger** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:17 am

I too think Lightning deserves a break - after all, we do not PAY anything for our pre-orders until they are filled (or did you?). So, we did not give anything in exchange for the "guarantee" some feel they had. As mentioned, you could cancel, die, etc....
Matter of fact, nothing stopped anyone from pre-ordering multiples, maybe even from different vendors - so let's be realistic about "pre-orders." I agree, it may make people think twice about pre-ordering, but that's a good thing imo

. They're pointless 9 times out of 10 (don't make me insert product name here).

Usually manufacturer's fault too (lie about distribution, production run, release date....) so we should roll with it.

ltcbj · Post by **ltcbj** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:31 am

Now maybe I'm just one of those people who have the old fashioned view of seeing eBay as more of an after market selling place (which I clearly recognize it is not) and new item retailers as just that.
So it strikes me that if a new item retailer takes pre-orders he has assumed the obligation to meet those as best he can. That would mean meet the pre-ordrs in order of receipt until running out, and perhaps limiting each customer to only one a piece to stretch as best he can. Refusing to honor any of the pre-orders, cancelling them all outright and then putting what is essentially other people's property up for sale on auction because the retailer thinks he can make a killing strikes me as the height of greed and the depths of ethical behavior. I'm appalled!!
Accepting the pre-orders was a contract made in good faith. Even if you don't know whether you can cover them all due to forces beyond your control does not justify the ethical and moral lapse of simply cancelling the pre-orders (money changing hands is irrelevant) out of hand to sell them at auction. This is arrogant and reprehensible behavior to me. The culture that worships greed and personal profit over all spawns this kind of behavior and I can only consider anyone indulging in it a moral reprobate. I sincerely hope you change your mind and do the right thing.
But that's all just my opinion....

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:33 am

Thank you Digger for your comments. Yes, I did forget to mention that no payment was made for these items ahead of their release, although we still feel upset that we cant fill the orders. Its not like we're trying to discourage people from placing pre-orders or sell something we dont have.

I do have one constructive comment to make on behalf of everyone interested in this item. Dragon has a service called Dragon Care, which purportedly attempts to deal with problems their customers might experience with their product. Why not send them an open letter asking Dragon to reconsider how many pieces they plan to offer at or after the Show? Cant hurt and who knows, maybe they'll reconsider. I'm sure they're not looking to lose sales or customers either.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.bigstep.com

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