New Merit 1/18 DAUNTLESS DISCUSSION

[tko211]

I am hearing similar rumors from China. I too have been told that this offering is coming off from a model kit and that the final article may be a much more brittle plastic which might suggest that this is more of a display piece and more fragile than the F-14s ever were! In particular, landing gear and dive flap joints in model kit plastic really makes me nervous! Yikes! I hope that I am wrong and that my sources are incorrect in that evaluation. I like detail and accuracy as much as the next guy however in 1:18 i'm also looking for moving features with some level of ruggedness over time so that I can fully enjoy the model. It doesn't curb me from wanting one but it certainly gives me reason to pause on ordering more than one as an evaluation only before I commit to more and begin customizing paint schemes. Also at the 170.00 price tag I may just wait to see how reviews come in before I bite down on one at all. Also as we have see in the past, often the S2 or S3 model is more sorted out. Food for thought I guess...

[aferguson]

$170?.....it's $150

it's probable that they have to use thinner plastic because they are using the same molds as the plastic kit, which would have been tooled that way to make it from thin-ish styrene plastic, like any model kit. It may lead to more breakage during assembly as well as by the end user but it was this or nothing.

So i'll take this. I usually pose and leave my planes anyways.....i've always been nervous about breakage even when it wasn't all that warranted.

[456THBG]

$170?.....it's $150

it's probable that they have to use thinner plastic because they are using the same molds as the plastic kit, which would have been tooled that way to make it from thin-ish styrene plastic, like any model kit. It may lead to more breakage during assembly as well as by the end user but it was this or nothing.

So i'll take this. I usually pose and leave my planes anyways.....i've always been nervous about breakage even when it wasn't all that warranted.

I feel the same way...Hopefully, it won't be too fragile.

[Yoxford]

The Rep. I spoke with said basically the same thing, but added “take the fragile part with a grain of salt”….it IS styrene plastic, not ABS and thinner, but still tough under normal handling …the canopy was pointed out as an example because it IS scale thickness..and so much thinner than what 21st century used on their canopies (which for the sake of durability was scaled like the Plexiglas at the Joe Louis Arena during a Red Wings game)…so don’t open & close it a lot or ya might crack it…I personally welcome the scale detail and the move to a more “model” like product.

[tko211]

My point was not so much the 170. (which the Msrp list price is 165-170). I'll pay a heavier price these days and welcome new product. I have paid it in spades for the F-14s I bought. My only point was to validate another members expressed caution about what we should or might expect from this model. Not bashing here, simply just adjusting my expectations a little. Others might value this knowledge as well. Kinda like getting a tomcat and not expecting spots! Or expecting pilots! The fact is 2 weeks ago I would have perhaps expected a product similar to BBi or 21c or even Admiral and JSI to a degree. But in fact it's looking like this plane is going to be different. Hey that could be good or just fine for some, but it's highly likely that most might have otherwise thought it would be similar to past offerings! So, 100, 150, 170.... Regardless of the price this plane might be more model kit than toy. It's just good info!

[Coreyeagle48]

Greetings

This plane and the JSI Tomcat are two completely different animals though.

The JSI Tomcat is a beast and I think suffered from being too large in this scale. The fragility was readily apparent because it was so big. It was easy to bump, easy to mishandle and easy to break. I think the Tomcat was a lesson learner in the fact that unless the model is going to be extremely durable, there is a limit on the size of planes you can do in this scale. I think the F-14 was clearly pushing it and JSI did not take into account the size and weight of the beast they had put out. In addition their QC, especially on the first run, was about as bad as you could get. This certainly contributed to their issues.

The Dauntless, if made as people are suggesting, will be fragile and will have to be handled carefully. But this brings up a question of where do we want 1/18 to go, do we want it to be playable value for GI JOE and Star Wars type stuff or do we want detailed display models in this scale.

I understand the working aspects of this model, but these are models and people need to be careful handling them. Case in point, the 1/32 Hobby Master Dauntless. This plane has loads of working features. It looks great. I think it is cool the features work but I rarely play with them. Reason being, at about $200 a plane, I am no way going to do anything to break the model. I think this Dauntless should be approached the same way. The working features will add realism but the plane will need to be handled with care. Even the 21st planes had problems with breakage from people forcing things, mishandling them and being rough on them. Given the prices of these pieces, I am extremely careful with them. Impressive display pieces that need to be handled with care.

I think if people want play value in 1/18, there is stuff out there for them to get. The PTE line for example which is cheap and durable and meant for children. I think with any of the 1/18 pieces (21st, BBI, JSI and others) you run the risk of breaking them if you are too hard on them and try to play with them too much. Plastic models have been done with retractable gear and working features already as kits, so there is no reason that this scale buildup from a kit shouldn't be able to work in that fashion.

I will still get one. The preproduction photos look great and the model looks well detailed. I will just be very careful assembling and handling. I personally am getting this model more for display than playing. Personally, I want to see 1/18 planes move away from the playability and oversized canopies and landing gears to more accurate representations of the actual planes they are based on. I think if that happens, it will be better for the scale overall. People who are spending big bucks on 1/18 are looking for accurate models, not toys loosely based on actual planes.

Corey

[cjg476]

I by any means didnt have any problem with it being accurate either or made of plastic. I dont play with my 1/18 either but it is diplayed. All I was saying is that it was said that it is much more of a model type plane then a durable concept we are used to. Im sure some wont have a problem with the way its made at all. I am about durability, especially for the price and I dont want to invest alot of money into something that could break easy. I will still get one no question about it. I just wanted to bring to light what I heard so that other board members would be informed. Im suprised you guys that have heard the same thing didnt say anything before. As a collector, this is info I would want to know about. So I was passing it on to the rest of you. I wasnt being negative in the sense you shouldnt get one, but was letting those who wanted to know more that I had heard some info. Im sure it will effect buyers decisions to wait until a s2 or s3.

I want to see alot more 1:18, but if companies are pushing the envelope of what they can do with making large scale planes and jets, maybe they should stick to small fighters then. It seems to be asking alot for those interested to shell out that much money for something that could break so easy. Companies should be trying to find an equal balance for there product in terms of quality and price not trying to get the buck for little bang. I just didnt want anyone to be disappointed when they got theirs and were like what is this cheap piece of crap and wish they knew more.

I think the dauntless looks amazing imo. But others may be turned off by the more model-like representation. To me it had nothing to do with being a toy or a model, but had to do with quality.

[snake]

Bit of an interesting development.

I am okay with this thinner plastic, up to a point. The manufacturers do need to strike a balance though, between thinness and durability. It needs to much more heavy duty than a comparable plastic kit, and I am sure it will be.

But as I rotate my display, it does need to stand up to being disassembled and put into storage a number of times.

Think it will be fine, but hope that Merit ensures that it is not too fragile, or will cause some problems for them with future releases.

[Dauntless]

This is definitely something to consider. I'm still on board though.
I figure, where can I even buy a 1:18 model kit of a plane for $149 (that's with free shipping of course) unassembled?

This one's put together and painted. Hopefully close to the pictures we've been seeing.

Most expensive model kits are missing a lot of moving features, and are fixed for display anyways. The last time you could buy an aircraft model (besides 21stC "toys") with retractable landing gear was a old Revell 1:32 kit. Everything now is made either or , but not both.

I'll be very careful when I play with it. I do hope the model strikes a balance and is somewhat adult playable.

[rohirrimknight]

I would like Jim@Merit to tell us if the above information is just the rumor or it is correct.

[Jason of Admiral Toys]

I would like Jim@Merit to tell us if the above information is just the rumor or it is correct.

I think the rumors are true.

I have looked at Merits' pictures and cannot find a single snap-latch or screw boss on the entire plane. You would expect to see a boss near the front and rear of the cockpit. (Anyone who purchased the Avenger without screw caps knows what I am talking about.) Items that do not use "screw bosses" are usually sonic welded, and even then you would expect to see a lip on the inner edge of the fuselage for a welding joint. I would be very surprised if they weld this aircraft.

I am of the opinion that this model is straight from the box and produced using standard DIY modeling techniques. This would explain the smaller quantity releases (I think they are using the original tooling). However, it will still benefit from spray masking and tampo printing just like your familiar 1:18 models, but it will definitely feel lighter. Putting a lead slug in the model and filling in some of the air gaps should fix that problem...

I think it will be a beautiful model, and I look forward to seeing the finished product. At least someone is making 1:18!!

[gburch]

... snip ... it will definitely feel lighter. Putting a lead slug in the model and filling in some of the air gaps should fix that problem...

Lighter is fine with me. I hang almost all my 1:18 birds, and some of the big ones require a little engineering ingenuity to keep in the air. Also, a lighter plane is less prone to damage if it falls.

[[CAT]CplSlade]

Also, a lighter plane is less prone to damage if it falls.

Not if its lighter because the plastic is thinner.

[Dauntless]

So this is much like the pre-built pre-painted Easy Model 1:72 planes that are made from Trumpeter (is it?) models, only ginourmously bigger of course.

I always thought it was a good concept to build models and sell them. It's the safe packaging and shipping them that makes it hard to do for your average joe, whereas a company doing it with their own packaging can do it easily. 21stC Toys pioneered the concept, with their easily put together planes, some assembly required. Why not built models? Sure they're not play-toys for kids, but it's mostly an adult thing now anyways.
I know of at least one person here (hworth) who builds airplane models kits for people (this is a little different than taking a 21stC or BBI plane and repainting it because tthey're already built.)

People pay a lot for models off the shelf, built and painted. Just check completed auctions.

[tko211]

The Dauntless, if made as people are suggesting, will be fragile and will have to be handled carefully. But this brings up a question of where do we want 1/18 to go, do we want it to be playable value for GI JOE and Star Wars type stuff or do we want detailed display models in this scale.

I think what I want is what we have been getting from 21c & BBI & Admiral and even JSI (sans the weak, design of the landing gear and spots). I my mind that means the ruggedness of most Starwars and GI JOE stuff but with much more detail and accuracy! That is my vote! I WISH that was what we were getting with the Dauntless. Personally I think the JSI tomcat is absolutely awesome with the exception of the gear!

Like I said, knowing that this plane is likely going to be a prebuilt model kit is good information and is certainly a change from what we have been trained to expect up until now.

[parrish333]

Maybe this isn't a fair comparison, but wouldn't the level of ruggedness on the recently released Merit 1/16 Tiger and T-34 be a decent indicator of the same for the Dauntless? Aren't those also built-up model kits?

[Yoxford]

sort of...the Tiger and T34 were RC models from Trumpeter WSN and made much like the 21st century tanks of long ago (trust me I know... cutting off the coupla of the Merit Tiger1 to add a working one took awhile...it was very thick plastic) The SBD will be more like the USS Hornet CV-8 - Doolittle Raid ship based on the Trumpeter model

[Coreyeagle48]

Greetings:

The problem is that it is difficult to make a toy/model and have accuracy. Considerations need to be made in build and in the design, which unfortunately kills the accuracy. The 21stC P-40 with its overly large landing gear and cockpit are a good example of this. So there are even compromises to be made. Even the Star Wars toys are inaccurate in shape and size compared to what they are portrayed as in the movies.

The JSI F-14 may be awesome if it is perfect but in my opinion it was a dog. They should have been ashamed to put that thing out to the public in the way it was painted and designed. Sure some of the features were terrific, but those features were also its downfall. The accurate landing gear actually caused breakages and weakness. Simply put, if they were going to be accurate like they wanted to be, they should have used metal gear. It would have been worth the cost as I am sure the gear breaking caused them more headaches than if done right in the first place.

But back to the Dauntless, I think this could represent a change in direction for this scale. If this is successful, and doesn't break and has a good paint finish, you could see 1/18 go toward a more "built model" approach that member Dauntless was talking about. I think 1/18 like this would sell and in large numbers. The only concern, has been brought up, can it withstand being handled and not be overly fragile. I truly hope it meets everyone's expectations. And at $150, this is a steal. If this Dauntless were a kit, you'd easily spend that and more building it, finishing it and doing all the neat model stuff to it. So this will be interesting when this comes out.

I'm ready and will be sure to do a detailed review on the Dauntless. I'm looking forward to it!

Corey

[gouchy]

So this will be made with thinner plastic more like model kits? No screws to hold it together?

How will this SBD be packaged? If it comes fully assembled with the wings already attached, wouldn't the box be huge?

If not packed with wings assembled, which is more likely, would we the buyer be expected to glue the wings on (can't be disassembled)? Or would this be the only concession for screws?

[gburch]

If not packed with wings assembled, which is more likely, would we the buyer be expected to glue the wings on (can't be disassembled)? Or would this be the only concession for screws?

I'd be very surprised if basic assembly requires any glue. They may use some kind of tab/slot construction that doesn't require screws. On the other hand, even lighter plastic like styrene can hold screws if you're careful not to over-tighten them.

[flyboy_fx]

I feel the 1/18 world would be popular if they were made like highly detailed models. THen you can get the whole modeling community on board!

[jlspec]

Was the 1/18 SBD kit by Trumpeter? I did a couple search and only a 1/18 kit proposed by Hobby Boss

[Beeavision]

Here are some links related to Hobby Boss concerning the SBD Dauntless.

http://www.model-making.eu/Hobby-Boss-U ... 39081.html

http://www.model-making.eu/Hobby-Boss-U ... 39085.html

http://www.flashie.nl/A/hobbyboss.html

Regardless of who we think is behind the making of this aircraft once we see the box this will come in only then will we learn who it really is. As they will probably want their name on there as well as Merit's. Only time will tell.

[Beeavision]

This may just be a coincidence but even the product id/item numbers fall relatively close to one another.

Merit:
MIL-88001 (Coral Sea)
MIL-88002 (Midway)

HobbyBoss:
MO-81801 (SBD 1/2 - Commander Enterprise Group/Pearl Harbor)
MO-81802 (SBD 3/4 - Midway)

[Jim@Merit]

We thank you for your support and apologize to have raised so many concerns,.... Yes, there will be a model kit of the SBD-3 released as a model kit. This is our way to overcome the high cost of tooling and allow us to present all new tooling item to 1/18 collectors, as well as an item to invite model builders to join the 1/18 community. There are already talks that a few after-market companies also show support by making detail enhancing products for the SBD-3.

Like the SBD-3 at "Battle of Midway", our 1/18 SBD-3 will also serve as the turning point for the 1/18 collections and this is our Battle of Midway. With YOUR support, we can make this a success and to turn the tide to enable further expand of our collections in larger scales. Along the way, we are certain that there are things we have overlooked and improvements are being made which is exactly why the release date had been pushed back.

Please note the following on Merit's "Built n Painted" 1/18 SBD-3:

1. Nylon parts are being used from the beginning to strengthen certain areas.
2. Plastic are thinners and special designs are used for strengthening.
3. Screws are used in the assembly process.
4. Special attention was made during the design to achieve a balanced compromise for durability, play value, and scale effect.
5. We have used the SBD-3 paint master in our web site, and so the final product may look different.
6. The paint master is built with first test shot obtained in November 2011.
7. MIL-88001 is "Battle of Midway" marking SBD-3
MIL-88002 is "Battle of Coral Sea" marking SBD-3
8. MIL-88002 is released first in order to follow historical events.
9. All Merit items starts with "8"

We hope we have addressed some of your concerns and we will continue to work hard to bring in your 1/18 SBD-3 ASAP.